From the Presence of the Lord
"Fool."
A piece of paper was left on the pulpit to rattle the preacher. He picked it up and saw one word: “Fool.” Quick witted, he wondered aloud, “Well, how about that? I’ve received messages before without anyone signing their name, but this is the first time someone signed their name but didn’t write a message.”
My endless torment friends perform a comparable antic with their interpretation of “from the presence of the Lord” in 2 Thessalonians 1:9. The phrase is smack dab in the very middle of the very apparent presence of the Lord, yet proponents of a torture chamber somewhere away from His presence use this phrase about his presence to say He is not present.
Confused? It is confusing. Granted, believers have often sensed the Lord’s presence when He wasn’t visibly there, but this is the first time He’s visibly there but is supposedly not present.
The passage in question says that those “that know not God… shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord.” The question we are asking in this chapter is whether “from the presence” indicates a point in space at which the action takes place, or the point of origin. Does “from the presence” mean separation or source?
We use “from” in both ways. “The shot from the gun was fifty yards from the target.” “From the gun” indicates the source - the shot originated from the gun; the gun was the source of the shot. “From the target” indicates separation - the shot was so far away (away is usually added when we mean separation) from the target; the target was separate from where the shot came from the gun.
“From the gun”- source.
“From the target”- separation.
So in 2 Thessalonians 1:9, does “from the presence” speak of “away”- the punishment happens in a place separate from His presence - or that His presence is the origin and means of the punishment? It is a vital question, especially for those who insist it’s away from. They need it to be away in order to turn “everlasting destruction” into unending destroying. If those who know not God are punished with everlasting destruction when the Lord Jesus comes in flaming fire to take vengeance, then it unmistakably expresses a complete consumption that is accomplished at that point in time. And that’s what we will prove in this chapter.
When it comes to when, traditionalists struggle. I've asked them. They don't know.
They don’t know when Christ “will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12). They don’t know when there will be a “fiery indignation which shall devour the adversaries” (Hebrews 10:27). They don’t know when “the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord... consume away” (Psalm 37:20). They don’t know when the chaff is burned up, the adversaries devoured, the wicked perish, or the enemies of the Lord are consumed because they don’t believe that actually happens.
And in the first chapter of Second Thessalonians they don’t know when it could be that Christ would come “with His mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance.” Most are fairly certain it hasn’t happened yet, and perhaps even more certain it won’t happen at all (at least not in any literal sense).
So they can’t say when.
But Paul says when:
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
When does this take place? When does Christ take vengeance? Again, traditionalists don’t seem to know. But we are told when it happens: “when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed” and “when he shall come… in that day.” That’s when.
But creedalists treat this as an irrelevant non-event, at least in comparison to the main attraction. It’s the brief trailer before the endless epic. The real vengeance, they say, does not take place when “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.” That must merely be a dramatic entry or a grandiose sideshow. Christ comes in flaming fire to take vengeance, but doesn’t take it; the real vengeance happens after and away- after He’s gone, and in fire that is far away. The actual and on-going punishment can’t possibly take place then, when Christ comes, because “from the presence of the Lord” in their narrative means He’s... not... there.
Search in multiple translations and you’ll find the Lord has been conveniently whisked from the scene in which He is so obviously prominent. “From the presence of the Lord” is rendered away from and far away from, shut out from and separated from, isolated from, exclusion from, and banishment from the presence of the Lord.
You’ll search in vain, however, to find an underlying Greek word from which to translate those words. These are not word for word translations, but paraphrases with an imposed interpretation that add words not in the original.
Jesus is without doubt present in verses seven, eight, and ten, but presumably to prop up their dogma they translate the Lord out of verse nine. If they didn’t, some naive reader may dare suppose that “punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power” is not endless torment in a hinterland hell far away from His presence and power, but an irreversible destruction resulting from His presence and power when he comes.
It’s really that simple. If “punished with everlasting destruction” is the intent and result of Christ appearing in “flaming fire taking vengeance,” then that exact punishment happens when He is there. Therefore, He cannot be allowed to be there. So, the phrase “who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord,” even though surrounded by His presence (when He is “revealed” and “comes”) without the benefit of a period (it’s all one sentence), is ruled parenthetical and peripheral - it’s not at the same time; it’s not at the same place; it’s not the same event. So say the orthodox sophists.
My, the illogical exertion it takes to execute these linguistic gymnastics as they strain to vault the immensity of omnipresence! To accommodate ceaseless suffering they place the punishment away from God’s very presence.
“Yeah, I never could quite wrap my mind around the second death being eternal separation from God,” admitted a thoughtful friend. “I thought God was omnipresent. How could there be a place where He is not?” Indeed. David thought the same: “Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there” (Psalm 139:7, 8). But, alas, according to intransigent theologians and revisionist translators, He is not there.
Ah, but they put themselves in a tight corner with this forced exposition. They use “punished with everlasting destruction” in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 to support endless torment because they say this takes place away from the presence of the Lord. If I’ve heard it once, I’ve heard it a hundred times- “the second death is eternal separation from God.” I've probably said it myself a couple dozen times. A Google search showed that very quote in the affirmative on the following sites:
bible.org; compellingtruth.org; versebyversecommentary.com; studylight.org; raptureready.com, etc.
They all say it’s true.
Think of it now. Contributors on each of those websites are sure the punishment of the second death is separation from God in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14) - away from his presence. But in their zeal to embrace and promote unending agony, each site also references Revelation 14:10, 11 as proof of endless torment. What does that say?
"The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”
In the presence of the Lamb? Did you catch that? Here translators weren’t as brazen, and didn’t add a word to remove the Lord.
So which is it? Is the Lord Jesus, the Lamb of God, present or not?
In 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, though revealed from heaven in flaming fire and coming to be admired in his saints, proponents of "death as separation" are sure Christ is not present when “they who know not God” are “punished with everlasting destruction.” Yet they enlist Revelation 14:10 as evidence of endless torment, though said torment takes place "in the presence of the Lamb." You can't have your present and absent too.
But not only do traditionalists cite contradicting passages as proof texts for perpetual pain, they also, unwittingly I suppose, understand the same “from the presence” wording in Acts 3:19 as source and not separation:
“Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.” In the Greek original it’s “apo prosopou” in both texts. It’s a case of absorbed creedal assumptions dictating translation and interpretation.
In Acts 3:19 all would certainly believe the times of refreshing would come from the very presence of the Lord, not away from it. The presence of the Lord is the source of the times of refreshing. So here, of course, there is no effort to add “away” and remove the Lord, as has been done in 2 Thessalonians 1:9.
In the context of both passages, the Lord is very present: “he shall send Jesus Christ” (Acts 3:20); “when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed… when he shall come” (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10). But the determined dogmatists only find it necessary to remove the Lord when His presence undermines their creed.
There are three more significant proofs that Christ is indeed present, and that His presence is the source of the punishment of everlasting destruction: the inclusion of “his mighty angels;” the addition of “the power of his glory;” and the limitation of how it all happens “when he comes… in that day.”
First, the inclusion of His mighty angels. Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, would have also known this detail from the teaching of Christ recorded in the gospels.
Secondly, that the punishment is “from the glory of his power” is in flawless accord with our Lord’s own description of His future coming to execute judgment.
And third, the events in the one sentence of 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 happen “when he comes… in that day” and harmonizes with Christ’s description of His coming.
What is abundantly clear is that when the Lord comes with His angels, He comes with “great power and glory.” So says Christ and Paul. It is a contradiction to isolate the clause “who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and the glory of his power” from the Lord’s coming with power and glory.
The description of His coming in judgment in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 matches these multiple passages in the gospels. It would be extremely odd for Paul to use the exact same language as Christ (coming, angels, power, glory), but use "glory of his power" to speak of His absence, not His presence.
An atheist shopkeeper wrote on his window “God is no where” but didn’t do the best job in spacing his letters. While passing the shop with his father, an excited lad exclaimed, “Look Dad! God is now here!”
Despite how traditionalists do the spacing, the Lord is present when those who know not God and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ are punished with everlasting destruction when He comes in flaming fire taking vengeance. It is His very presence and power that brings it to pass.
And though champions of ceaseless suffering imagine a place where God is not, there is coming a great and dreadful day when all will know “God is now here!”
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